Worma: Something like how WI sides of the 1980s used to get out in those pointless tour games against some unknown bowler, esp when they were touring India. Then selectors would pick that guy and the batsmen would go berserk against him specifically? :)
Joe: I notice you use the phrase "do the same to you". This is an England tour to Pakistan we're talking about. England tour India next year, schedule will be available 3 hours before England are to fly from Heathrow.
let us not underestimate ashley giles simply because of the myth that good spinners come only from the subcontinent. at present, only kumble seems to fit the bill. the rest like murali and harbhajan are possessors of dubious actions. of course, that is my personal view. remember, giles took the wicket of damien martyn with a splendid delivery. the same martyn scored a lot of runs in India. btw, the subcontinental batsmen often play rash shots against 'white' spinners and pay the penalty. the last time giles bowled in India, there was a talk of negative bowling and he had the great sachin stumped.lastly, I agree with the view that woolmer simply is playing mind games.
I am yvsaimadhav and have a blog called viewlogic.blogspot.com
GK: We do have a tendency to go into our shell against ordinary spinners. So if Giles is indeed not ordinary, then we'd not be defensive against him. On the other hand, if he does make us go into our shell, he must be an ordinary bowler. Isn't there a contradiction here?
SM: It isn't a myth that good spinners originate in the sub-continent. Aside Warne and Vettori, can you think of any good spinners currently playing for England, West Indies, South Africa and Zimbabwe? To re-quote David Lloyd, if Giles is a good spinner, my backside is a fire engine!
Remember that the dubious action argument doesn't (any longer) hold true officially :). As for Giles getting Martyn out, it was a splendid delivery. But have you heard of the connection between swallows and summers? I am not commenting on the ability of Pakistani, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi batsmen against 'white' spinners. But somehow, the numbers for say Warne, MacGill and Vettori are significantly poor against India in comparison with their overall achievements.
i have never said that only the subcontinent produces good spinners. i also once harboured the dream of being a leg spinner inspired by the feats of l.sivaramakrishnan in the benson and hedges wcc of 1985. let us give credit where it is due. let us consider the lack of good spinners once the current crop withers away.
as for the official recognition to the chucking, the less said the better.
it is true that one swallow does not make a summer , but one can spoil a summer.
I posted these over at Will's, Jagadish, you might find them entertaining. They are Ashley Giles's averages on the sub-continent: Bangladesh: 112 (2 Tests, 1 wicket) India: 33 (2 Tests, 6 wickets) Pakistan: 24.11 (3 Tests, 17 wickets) Sri Lanka: 33.92 (6 Tests, 25 wickets)
Overall that's an average of around 32, and Giles has yet to lose a Test in India.
Geoff - Where @ William's blog did you post these numbers? Aren't you rolling on the floor laughing at his performance against *Bangladesh*? Are you implying India won at Mohali in 2002 only because the mighty Giles was absent? :)
SM: You said "let us not underestimate ashley giles simply because of the myth that good spinners come only from the subcontinent." To that I said that it was a *reality* that only the sub-continent produces decent spinners, with Warne and Vettori being the honourable exceptions. The presence of good spinners is a cyclical thing. Before Kumble came along, Hirwani and Maninder were the only hopes. He faded away, bigtime! Along with Maninder we had the likes of Arshad Ayub, Shivlal Yadav, Gopal Sharma etc.
I don't know about his performance against Bangladesh, Jagadish. I mean, Virender Sehwag has a poor record against them, and he's one of the best players in the world. And the result at Mohali just showed how easily England capitalute without Giles's character. They may have lost even so, but not without a trademark regal performance.
In seriousness, though, as we are (supposedly) talking about England in Pakistan, then you can't deny that Giles has an excellent record there.
Thanks Geoff. Will have a look. Giles does have an excellent record against/in Pakistan. But Pakistan's batsmen aren't necessarily too great at playing spin. See Warne's and MacGill's records against Pakistan. In my opinion, India's current crop of batsmen, collectively, are the best players of spin at least in the sub-continent, followed by Sri Lanka.
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